Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Maratha Confederacy	Closed	Mohammad Umar Ali (t)	6 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 13 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 13 hours
Elissa Slotkin	Closed	Andrew.robbins (t)	5 days, 20 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	11 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	11 hours
Gangubai Kathiawadi	Closed	Ankitsalsa14 (t)	5 days, 3 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	5 days,	Robert McClenon (t)	5 days,
Naseem Hamed	New	Mac Dreamstate (t)	3 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	10 hours	JFHJr (t)	10 hours
Killing of Laken Riley	Closed	Gottagotospace (t)	2 days, 17 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 11 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 11 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 05:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Maratha Confederacy

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Mohammad Umar Ali on 13:57, 24 May 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Maratha Confederacy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Mohammad Umar Ali (talk · contribs) PadFoot2008 (talk · contribs) Rahio1234 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview About territorial peak of an empire and what information to be included in the into para(s) of the article and what not to be included. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Maratha_Confederacy#WP:RAJ_claim_misunderstood_by_Rawn3012 Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection/Increase#Maratha_Confederacy User_talk:Mohammad_Umar_Ali#May_2024 How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Plz see the WP:RS sources and take decision from a neutral point of view. Any article needs to have information of itself not others here in Maratha Confederacy article Mughals are discussed more in 1st para than the Marathas. Not much have been described about Marathas in intro paras even after so much information exist about them. Summary of dispute by PadFoot2008 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Rahio1234 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Comment by Timtrent (uninvolved) Please see the edit warring noticeboard discussion filed since this discussion was opened here. I make no comment on this, nor on that discussion. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 06:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Maratha Confederacy discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Elissa Slotkin

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Andrew.robbins on 19:20, 24 May 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Elissa Slotkin (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Andrew.robbins (talk · contribs) Orca (talk · contribs) Drmies (talk · contribs) LegalSmeagolian (talk · contribs) Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk · contribs) JayBeeEll (talk · contribs) Alpha3031 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Dispute as to the neutrality of characterizing Slotkin's "support of the strike" with a plain statement or quotes from reliable sources. No consensus from RfC leaves status quo in place, but status quo is seen as an inaccurate/slanted characterization by some participants in discussion. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Elissa Slotkin#Labor Positions and the 2023 UAW strike, Talk:Elissa Slotkin#Request for Comment? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? A decision on whether the reliable sources characterize the quote, how they characterize the quote, and whether part of the quote should be included in the article. Summary of dispute by Orca Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Drmies Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Oh I'll keep it brief: a few editors have been fighting to keep this trivial NOTNEWS material in here for months. It's a bit of nothing, apparently originally inserted by a sock of User:Thespeedoflightneverchanges. User:andrew.robbins is making this into a--I don't know what, something irritating, and I wonder what wise editors like User:Muboshgu or User:Courcelles think about this. Drmies (talk) 22:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by LegalSmeagolian Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I don't have anything to add outside of there is no consensus for anything, at this point I say just leave it out. Not saying this is good reasoning or that I agree that NOTNEWS applies, just that I don't think it is a big enough deal to keep pushing. Maybe have another RFC in a few months/years once more critical perspectives of her tenure and actions towards labor have been done. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Dcpoliticaljunkie Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Important context here is that this article has been the subject of repeated sock and meat puppetry with off-Wiki organizing being publicly admitted to (which resulted in even the talk page being ECP) with Cpotisch reporting that there's a team of editors who "hate Slotkin" attempting to push a POV here. Wrt this specific section of the article: it's been discussed ad nauseam and there's no consensus for the edit being suggested. Not sure how many venues this argument needs to be repeated in. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 22:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by JayBeeEll Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Elissa Slotkin discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Zeroth question by volunteer (Elissa Slotkin) There has already been an RFC, although the RFC was poorly written, and was closed as No Consensus. Before any further dispute resolution action can be taken, either at this noticeboard, or elsewhere, I have a question, which is: What, if anything, do any of the editors who have filed or responded to this request expect to be accomplished at this noticeboard? I am adding the closer, User:Alpha3031, because they noted in closing that a request for assistance could be made here or at another noticeboard. What, if anything, is anyone suggesting or asking to be done at this noticeboard? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC) This noticeboard usually facilitates moderated discussion. It isn't obvious to me whether moderated discussion is feasible. If some other service is being requested, it needs to be requested. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not reply to the statements of other editors. Just answer the question that I have asked. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Elissa Slotkin) To me, this comes down to acknowledging that leaving the status quo in place is not consistent with no consensus when the disputed text is so matter-of-fact. I'll save the elaboration on the process comments by certain editors above but would simply like to note that the immediate jump to blame on outside actors and implications levied on decisions that were overturned have been centered over the content dispute from the beginning. Obviously, deletion for the sake of NPOV isn't acceptable but for the sake of closure I do feel that there needs to be a content finding made here one way or the other. As to why this noticeboard and not somewhere else, I was simply acting on the suggestion of the closer and would be more than happy to relocate this if need be. andrew.robbins (talk) 22:37, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Alpha3031 (Elissa Slotkin 0) Apologies for the delayed response. andrew.robbins, while it's not ubiquitous, omission of some particular material (especially contentious material) due to lack of consensus for inclusion is not unheard of either, and is supported by the Biographies of living persons policy. I believe the RFC in question is sufficiently malformed and underparticipated that it didn't really count for much in the grand scheme of things, but ultimately the participants were not able to come to a consensus for inclusion. If editors wish to continue to pursue inclusion near the end of discussion here, I believe this noticeboard may be of assistance in drafting a more appropriate RFC question, with clear options and a briefer and more neutral opening statement, though I would encourage any looking to do so to try to assess their prospects of success before embarking on such an attempt. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:48, 26 May 2024 (UTC) First statement by moderator (Elissa Slotkin) The closer of the previous RFC has suggested that discussion at this noticeboard could formulate a better RFC. Please read DRN Rule E. This article and this discussion involve American politics because they involve an American politician. I have two questions for each editor. First, do you want to take part in discussion for the purpose of formulating a better RFC, and are you willing to follow WP:DRN Rule E? Second, do any of you have a proposal for a better RFC? In later discussion, we may discuss and further improve the RFC, but if someone proposes an obviously good wording, I may start the RFC and close the discussion. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not reply to the posts of other editors at this time; just reply to the request for a better RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Statement 1.1 by moderator (Elissa Slotkin) Do either the original poster or any of the other editors here want to take part in discussion for the purpose of formulating a better RFC? If so, the discussion will be in accordance with DRN Rule E. If so, you may propose a wording for a better RFC. If there are no answers, I will conclude that the original poster was wasting the time of the other editors. That isn't a reason to close this discussion, but lack of input is a reason to close a discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:54, 29 May 2024 (UTC) First statements by editors (Elissa Slotkin) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gangubai Kathiawadi

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Ankitsalsa14 on 12:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Gangubai Kathiawadi (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved JabSaiyaan (talk · contribs) Ankitsalsa14 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview An account has been repeatedly disrupting constructive edits from users and indulging in edit-war without citing any factual sources on page GangubaiKathiawadi . I have quoted my sources which are considered authentic by Wikipedia but the other user doesn't have any and is contesting purely on basis on personal opinion How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JabSaiyaan, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gangubai_Kathiawadi&action=history How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Kindly clarify it to the user & other users that before removing any authentic data from a reliable source as per WP:ICTFSOURCES https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gangubai_Kathiawadi&action=history, he/she has to provide sufficient basis to the edits. Editing purely on basis of personal bias is detrimental to the authenticity of information on a global platform like Wikipedia. Summary of dispute by JabSaiyaan Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Gangubai Kathiawadi discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Naseem Hamed

– New discussion.

Filed by Mac Dreamstate on 13:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Naseem Hamed (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Mac Dreamstate (talk · contribs)
• ActionHeroesAreReal (talk · contribs)
• Abo_Yemen (talk · contribs)
• JFHJr (talk · contribs)
• Jahalive (talk · contribs)
• The_MK (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is an impasse on how to describe, in the lead section, this boxer who was born in the UK, has only ever resided in the UK, and has only competed under a British boxing licence. He has Yemeni parents, which may qualify him for citizenship by descent. Various MOS have been invoked: MOS:ETHNICITY, MOS:IDENTITY, WP:NPOV, and WP:WEIGHT.

In the boxing world and Western mainstream media, he is primarily notable as a British boxer; in the Arab world, his Yemeni heritage is heavily emphasised. There are numerous reliable Western sources which describe him as solely British, and some Arab sources (of varying reliability) which describe him as Yemeni. Hamed self-describes as "British-Yemeni" or "Yemeni" on social media, and did so during his career by means of Yemeni flags and other symbology.

Extensive discussion at the talk page has resulted in a three vs three dispute on how to word the lead section: "British professional boxer", "British-Yemeni professional boxer", or "British professional boxer of Yemeni descent".

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Naseem Hamed#British / British-Yemeni

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Assist us in deciding how to describe Hamed in the opening sentence of the lead section, and whether it needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis or per the abovementioned MOS'es.

Summary of dispute by ActionHeroesAreReal

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Abo_Yemen

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by JFHJr

Greetings. I am a WP:BLPN volunteer and have participated in talkpage discussion but never edited this article. Because the subject identifies as Yemeni as supported by at least one reliable reference, I'm comfortable with that self-identification appearing anywhere in the article. I'm also of the position that WP:BLP and related either outweigh WP:MOS concerns or present a defensible position to WP:IAR. I do believe an identity datum as basic as this merits reasonable WP:WEIGHT. I do not agree with disputing its presence in the lede, even if it's worth exactly one mention in the body. Otherwise, I'd comment of the overall dispute that concerns stated and implied on the talkpage regarding chauvinism (countries claiming a champion) are themselves inherently chauvinistic. I'm not from either one. I have no committed preference for how this is resolved other than finding a resolution. Ta. JFHJr (㊟) 01:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

PS. If it aids resolution in this matter, I'm willing to walk-back my concerns (see talkpage) about Variety, iff the only thing used is identity/ethnicity. First, see WP:RSNP for the safety indicator. Second, this is tantamount to a safe WP:BLPSPS for the sole purpose used. This is actually an innocuous matter, despite the back and forth. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 03:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Jahalive

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by The_MK

First of all, contrary to the dispute overview, it was mentioned that only some (which are Arab) sources mentioned “Yemeni” or “British-Yemeni”, this is false, 3 sources (which are [1], [2], [3]) inserted in the discussion has stated “British-Yemeni” or has mentioned him being of Yemeni heritage and are not Arab sources at all, and are in-fact mostly western, with only two sources provided being Arab. For the summary of dispute, I’ve inserted several sources that prove the notability of Naseem’s Yemeni heritage, with him identifying as a Yemeni, and raising the Yemeni flag in a lot of his fights, and other acts of emphasis and symbology of him being Yemeni. All of this makes him being Yemeni/of Yemeni origins notable to his identity, and hence as per WP:ETHNICITY we would have to mention both British and Yemeni, because if not, that would be a violation of WP:NPOV as we are only taking into consideration him being British only, even if being Yemeni is as or more notable to his identity. At first I supported “British-Yemeni” in the lede but for more clarity, we should say “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” as we can’t confirm him having only one citizenship as per Yemeni naturalization law, he was always qualified for citizenship by descent (as both his parents are Yemeni), also using “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” allows us to include sources for both “British” and “Yemeni”. |MK| 📝

Naseem Hamed discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

First statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed)

I am ready to act as the moderator for this dispute. It appears that there is a dispute over what to say the subject's nationality is. Are there any other content issues? Please read DRN Rule A, and indicate whether you are willing to take part in moderated discussion in accordance with the rules. Please state, in one paragraph, what you think should be listed as the subject's nationality, and why that should be listed as his nationality. It appears that we may have to use an RFC. If anyone has any suggestions for compromise in place of an RFC, please provide the suggestion now. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Naseem Hamed)

Are there any other content issues? Nationality yes. Things like the adjective and the flag might (probably) point equally to ethnicity and heritage. This wider scope captures more of the nuance per talkpage discussions and proposed citations. I don't think this has rabbit-holed too far into nationality in the legal sense, nor citizenship. It's akin to asking how "Italian-American" an athlete would be, first generation (and flying the Italian flag, and who has self-described as Italian in a non-self-serving claim). Thank you Robert McClenon! JFHJr (㊟) 05:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Killing of Laken Riley

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Gottagotospace on 21:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Killing of Laken Riley (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Gottagotospace (talk · contribs) TanRabbitry (talk · contribs) FMSky (talk · contribs) Objective3000 (talk · contribs) Cakelot1 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview This article is about a homicide that occurred in 2024. The suspect has been arrested and charged with murder, but the case has not gone to trial yet. We are discussing whether or not the body of the page should refer to the crime as a "murder" or not. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths) is clear that we should *not* use the word "murder" in the title of the page, because nobody has been *convicted* of murder yet in this case. My view is that because we should not use "murder" in the title, we shouldn't be using it elsewhere on the page either, unless we are talking about the murder charge against the suspect or we are quoting someone. "Murder" is a legal term that is much narrower than "killing" or "homicide", and in my view, I believe the court is the one that gets to make the determination whether or not it's "murder". It's the court's job, not Wikipedians' job. I changed some instances of "murder" in the article to say "killing" or "homicide", but it was reverted by @FMSky. The users who have said they support using the term "murder" are @TanRabbitry and @FMSky. The users who support using other terms (like "killing") are me, @Objective3000, and @Cakelot1. There has also been discussion about the title of the article on the Talk page, but since Wikipedia policy seems very clear about the title, I am not naming editors who provided their opinions on the title ONLY. I'm only naming editors who provided opinions on the use of "murder" in the rest of the article. I would like resolution regarding the language used in the article as a whole. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Killing_of_Laken_Riley#Title_(Edit_to_add:_and_language_in_the_rest_of_the_article_too) How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? A decision on the language to be used in the body of the article ("murder" vs. "killing"/"homicide"), except for instances where we are describing specific charges filed or quotes from sources. Summary of dispute by TanRabbitry Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Here is my view: Wikipedia is not a court of law. We do have to assume innocence until guilt is proved, but we can also use some measure of common sense. Murder is the illegal, unjustifiable killing of another person. I actually don't agree with a previous editor's suggestion that "murder" is synonymous with "killing." Saying "I killed a mosquito," sounds normal. Saying "I murdered a mosquito," will get some strange reactions. Now, the death wasn't a suicide, manslaughter or accident. There is absolutely no hint of justification, such as self-defense. The party who killed her (whether its the suspect or not) committed murder. We don't know if the suspect did it because there's an assumption of innocence until any conviction. So if he's innocent, someone else still murdered her. But even if, for example, he did kill her and argues that he has a legal excuse (such as an insanity defense) the murder still occurred even if that argument is accepted and he isn't personally culpable for the crime. The murder happened regardless of the suspect's involvement or culpability. The death was due to blunt force trauma and asphyxiation, followed by multiple strikes to the head with a rock. There is no reasonable situation that this case could be self-defense. Now a court would at least have to entertain that possibility, but we do not (at least until that is actually claimed by the defense during the trial). Also, while we certainly can't assume that the suspect is guilty, I think we can take the polices' word that he didn't know her to be true (once again until such time as the defense says otherwise) therefore negating a crime of passion. The circumstances of the death also render this idea absurd. I think it is reasonable to assume the murder was a "crime of opportunity" as has been reported (regardless of who committed it), unless this is later contradicted. Unlike other cases mentioned on the "Talk" page, the circumstances and motivation are not controversial, only what the crime signifies and that isn't relevant here. The key point is this: I have wondered under what circumstances the "ignore rules" idea is to be utilized. I think this is one such place. After all, the phrasing suggestions are guidelines, not iron-clad rules. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 01:56, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by FMSky Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Objective3000 We are not judge and jury. There was no witness to the death. The accused is named making this a WP:BLP. We document what has occurred, not the result of a future trial WP:CRYSTAL. Unlike a newspaper, there is WP:NODEADLINE. The word murder should only be included in quotes until we know it is a murder. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC) An admin has corrected the text. O3000, Ret. (talk) 10:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC) The jury determines the particular facts of the case and the guilt of the accused. The death has been ruled a homicide and my point is that there isn't a rational explanation other than murder. That says nothing against the accused's guilt or innocence. Someone is guilty of murder, the only question is who and we won't know that until the trial is complete. We should use reason in certain instances instead of always following a guideline that can't account for every circumstance. I think this is an exception that proves the rule. TanRabbitry (talk) 02:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Well, not every homicide is a murder. The term homicide is rather technical and unwieldy, and only means "killing of another human being," meaning some second human is responsible. So for title purposes, "killing" is sufficient. If we suspected a bear could have done it, we'd be left with "death." And if you're drawing rational conclusions not based on a legal determination per a reliable source, you've WP:NORed and WP:POVed a "murder." Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 21:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Cakelot1 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. There's a reason that WP:KILLINGS, which is an explanatory supplement to WP:TITLE, the latter of which is policy, as determined by a RfC archived here. There's also WP:BLPCRIME which exists for this purpose. The idea that we should ignore this guidance because of our WP:COMMONSENSE seems unwise. There have been plenty of other articles which where at "Killing of", until a conviction was rendered, where it seemed equally obvious that it would go one way (I'm thinking of Killing of Brianna Ghey which was moved to "Murder of" when they perpetrators where found guilty; but there's countless other examples of this). I just fail to see why this article is so different from every other article about killings/murders. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 11:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Killing of Laken Riley discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - The biographies of living persons noticeboard is probably the best forum for this concern. This seems to be a question about the biographies of living persons policy that can be answered by a knowledgeable volunteer. The suspect is a living person, and Laken Riley is a recently deceased person, and will be viewed as a recently deceased person as long as there are criminal proceedings about her death. I am not closing this case, but I will close this case if a thread is opened at the BLP noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Another editor changed the language in the article before we have reached a conclusion. I reversed it back. Just thought I should let everyone know. TanRabbitry (talk) 06:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I just opened up a thread on the BLP noticeboard with a link to this discussion. Gottagotospace (talk) 17:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.